More on strange and annoying nicknames

[superbadgirl]

If Dean Winchester has referred to Sam Winchester as "kiddo*" on the television screen, I've missed it. Maybe he did it once or something, which would be easy to block out for me, but given the number of times I have seen that in fanfiction it would appear Dean calls Sam that all the time (and I rarely venture into reading SPN fic). Every time I see it I want to send feedback begging for the writer to please stop using that word. It seems, to me, to perpetuate this idea that Sam's a weak little boy who needs coddling and protection.

H/C stories can be written without infantalizing one of the characters. Really.

At least when writers abused "Danny" in SG-1 fandom, Jack actually did use that a couple of times and so there was a (somewhat sketchy, if you ask me) foundation. That got to a point where I would really have to back out of a story if I read that more than, say, five times in a couple of pages. There was also one author who did a similar thing as "kiddo." Everything would go along swimmingly, and then Jack would suddenly call Daniel, Sam and Teal'c "kiddies." WTF, man. W.T.F.

Back to SPN, I've now been thinking about other horrific characterizations. Sam has got teary-eyed a bit in the show. It's canon. So has Dean. This, however, does not mean that they'll cry at the drop of a hat. Sam thinking about a puppy being left alone because its owner got dead would not make him turn into a quivering mass of tears. It really wouldn't. Sam's a sensitive soul (or at least he was), sure, but there are limitations. I would ask people just think for a minute or two before they make either Sam or Dean burst into tears.

Funnily enough, the same thing happened in SG-1 fandom as well. There are certain stories out there that are SO smarmy it makes me cringe, stories in which Daniel and Jack are such weepy, emotional wrecks I do not recognize them at all.

I suppose it can all be chalked up to different strokes for different folks.

And now I must go because apparently I'm 2 hours behind on working for The Man (frankly, I find that bogus) and have to play catch-up. While I'm sweeping and weeding and scrubbing, I'm hoping to devise a better plan to avoid the mailman. He's persistent, that one.


*perhaps the "kiddo" thing is personal. Apparently my paternal grandfather called all of us "kiddo" and when I was about 2 1/2 or 3 I started talking more and insisted that he stop calling me that because my name wasn't Kiddo, it was SBG. My mom said that was adorable, everyone oohed and ahhed and my grandfather continued to call me kiddo, bless his heart. He died when I was 4.

Comments

[khek.livejournal.com]

I think John called one of them "kiddo" once. I can sort of hear it in my head, but I couldn't tell you which episode. I have a feeling it was Dean rather than Sam though.

I don't get the dissolving into tears in ANY character--SPN, SG-1, TS...anyone. It usually takes death in some shape or form to get any of the characters to that point, so having a bad day just doesn't qualify.

I sometimes call kids "honey" or "sweetie" when I can't remember their names (something of a daily occurence, given my job). I've had a few tell me that's not their name. Those kids tend to turn out to be pretty sure of themselves as adults! :)

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

In Scarecrow during the phone call from John, Sam asks where he (John) is and the reply is "Sorry, kiddo, I can’t tell you that."

Parent to child no matter how old works for me,as long as it's not overused, but no way do I see Dean as Sam's substitute parent - far too much of that goes on in fan fiction for my liking and that's what the "kiddo" phrase implies to me.

There is only, what? 4 years between them? So many stories have Dean as Sam's sole care giver and yet I can't see a 4 and a half year old being that proficient with baby feeding and changing....one step too far if you ask me.

[khek.livejournal.com]

Yeah, now that you mention it, I do think it's in Scarecrow. It might be in Something Wicked too, during the flashback. It works as parent to child.

**There is only, what? 4 years between them? So many stories have Dean as Sam's sole care giver and yet I can't see a 4 and a half year old being that proficient with baby feeding and changing....one step too far if you ask me.**

Well, there's four years between me and my youngest sister (with two others inbetween). I remember helping my mother change diapers, and showing my father how to do it (once!) when I was pretty little. I don't think that it would...or could be a regular thing. However, on family outings, I usually did get put in charge of one sister ("make sure you hold Kelly's hand") fairly often, and I had the worst time getting my sisters to see me as a person their age rather than someone who would tell them what to do (or narc them out) when we got to jr high/high school, so I can actually see Sam thinking of Dean as a parent-type substitute. I still don't think he would have used "kiddo" though, because it's not a kid-to-kid thing. Unless you're *trying* to belittle a younger sibling in an annoying fashion. It's not an absent-minded substitute for a sibling's name.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Yep, I agree. I think Dean did do a lot for Sam when they were younger, but I always see John being quite protective of them both - maybe giving Dean something to concentrate on after his mother died, but John was still there.

As they grew older I think he probably left them more than some people are comfortable with - but soemhow I still see Dean as keeping that "big brother" aura rather than "parent" with Sam.

There is 4 years between my sister and me too, me being the youngest and yes, I don't think I ever saw her as being my age or someone to confide in - always she was a figure of authority, she was prefect at school then head girl at both schools - someone who ratted me out constantly. But even so she was also never in the "adult" category either, which parents and aunties were. It's a difficult relationship, but one where I was never a child to her but an annoying little brat! :))

[superbadgirl]

There is 4 years between my sister and me too, me being the youngest and yes, I don't think I ever saw her as being my age or someone to confide in - always she was a figure of authority, she was prefect at school then head girl at both schools - someone who ratted me out constantly. But even so she was also never in the "adult" category either, which parents and aunties were. It's a difficult relationship, but one where I was never a child to her but an annoying little brat! :))

In our family photos, you can tell exactly when my oldest sister stopped being a kid and assumed responsibility. Her total aspect changed. It's kind of heartbreaking, really.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I only found out recently when you mentioned it in another post that you are one of...11? was it? I kind of knew you were from a big family but never thought how many. Must be very, very strange for you out on your own - do you feel a bit like Sam? *G*

A family of many children really is beyond my limits of imagination, but I do somehow think that the older kids must have grown up fast with the added responsibility. I guess it must happen a lot - but I always forget to factor in big families when I think of Dean growing up faster than he should. Ok, you may not have had the monsters - but looking after younger kids must be hard when you're only a kid yourself.

However I hope there was a good side as well for you and your siblings.

[superbadgirl]

I only found out recently when you mentioned it in another post that you are one of...11? was it? I kind of knew you were from a big family but never thought how many. Must be very, very strange for you out on your own - do you feel a bit like Sam? *G*

Heh. Yes and no. It's a very difficult dynamic to explain accurately, because the memories I have are very skewed and I tend to focus more on the negative than the positive when I speak of the family. That doesn't mean it was all bad, but I'll just say I'm quite content out here by myself...and yet feel pangs of guilt every time I speak with everyone back there, especially my parents.

I guess it must happen a lot - but I always forget to factor in big families when I think of Dean growing up faster than he should. Ok, you may not have had the monsters - but looking after younger kids must be hard when you're only a kid yourself.

In a family the size of mine, there were multiple kids with first-born tendencies. I remember taking care of (or at least feeling saddled with) my younger brother and one of my younger sisters. Simple things, like standing up for them when they got picked on, holding my little sis as she puked all the way to school because she had motion sickness...and I love them to bits, but at the same time they exhaust me still.

That said, I do think Dean grew up way faster than any average first-born would.

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

I'm glad to hear you're contented where you are - but don't feel guilty for doing your own thing I'm sure your parents understand. :)

Being the younger I've never had to experience the looking after thing, so I guess that's something I'll never know.

Yeah, Dean is a special case though.... :)

[superbadgirl]

Parent to child no matter how old works for me,as long as it's not overused, but no way do I see Dean as Sam's substitute parent - far too much of that goes on in fan fiction for my liking and that's what the "kiddo" phrase implies to me.

I just don't see Sam standing for it. He balked and fought Sammy for quite a while before he gave up - I really, really doubt he'd let Dean get away with "kiddo."

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

No I don't see Sam standing for it either - but neither do I see Dean as the type to use it - John, yes, Dean, no. Again it's the parental thing and I don't see Dean as thinking of himself that way, always the adored older brother - and yeah, I do think Sam went through the adoration stage....and Dean won't let him forget that either! :))

[superbadgirl]

I have less of a problem with a parent calling a child that, though I would personally probably chafe at it (hee, given that I did when I was 2.5).

I don't get the dissolving into tears in ANY character--SPN, SG-1, TS...anyone. It usually takes death in some shape or form to get any of the characters to that point, so having a bad day just doesn't qualify.

Sometimes I wonder if it's just ineffectual writing. Maybe to the author they're not weeping, but holy hell does it come across that way to me. The only time Sam or Dean really, truly turned on the waterworks was Sam in Heart. And that was for a pretty damned good reason.

I've had a few tell me that's not their name. Those kids tend to turn out to be pretty sure of themselves as adults! :)

Hee. I'd probably really get along well with those kids.

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

I think John also called Dean "kiddo" in the teaser to the pilot, when Dean was around four years old.

[gategrrl.livejournal.com]

It's a strange habit amongst writers. It's like they can't imagine any other response to a percieved "trauma" (and I use this word in the way THEY mean it, meaning, a twiggy little emo affair) in order to get the effect they want; which is, a man-child who needs Mommy to help them Through The Trauma.

I think its a limitation of imagination and/or experience. Or it's simply a kink that needs to go away or at least be clearly labelled (there's That WORD again!).

I think most adults like to read about adults behaving as adults. Otherwise, write frigging kid fic and get it overwith.

[superbadgirl]

It's a strange habit amongst writers. It's like they can't imagine any other response to a percieved "trauma" (and I use this word in the way THEY mean it, meaning, a twiggy little emo affair) in order to get the effect they want; which is, a man-child who needs Mommy to help them Through The Trauma.

It drives me mad. Mad, I tell you!

I think its a limitation of imagination and/or experience. Or it's simply a kink that needs to go away or at least be clearly labelled (there's That WORD again!).

I know I'd appreciate a label. I've noticed some authors are kind enough to denote person and tense, which is great. Something like this, though, I wonder if they even know they're doing it.

And yeah. There are TONS of kidfic stories in SPN fandom, so they could get their kiddo kicks there just fine.

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

I love reading adults acting as adults, and I do think there are times that adults (even men) will cry. Heck, the men I know cry *way* more than most women. lol Toolman's had many guys literally crying on his shoulder over one thing or another over the years, and he's more likely to cry than me, too. *g*

But still... In a story, it has to be done in a believable way for me. I suppose it is a bit of a kink for me, too, but I don't want the man to act like a child. I really dislike that in fic. There's a fine line there for me, I guess.

[superbadgirl]

Well, that was my point, even if I was unclear. I'm not anti-tears. I just don't believe for one second either Sam or Dean would get so upset over half the stuff they do in fanfic.

I'm considering writing a mock-up crying story. No one else would be amused, but I sure would be. ;)

[strangevisitor7.livejournal.com]

I hate when people call a grown person Kiddo,too. I agree it makes them seem young or weak. Dean has called Sam geek boy or college boy but I have never heard him use kiddo. I am almost positive that was what John called wee!Dean in Something Wicked.

[superbadgirl]

Dang, now I'm going to have to rewatch S1 to find that elusive "kiddo," because my curiosities up. Or, rather, watch to confirm the cases noted here. ;)

It's sad, really, that something so small can really knock me right out of a story. I hardly ever read in SPN fandom, because I'm a special needs reader. I don't do wincest, I don't do third/present, I don't love pre-series, etc., etc. Hee.

[strangevisitor7.livejournal.com]

It's sad, really, that something so small can really knock me right out of a story

For me, it's when people talk about the Impala as a two door. It makes me wonder if they have even watched the show.

I think everyone has their pet peeves that can ruin a story no matter how good.

[superbadgirl]

Hee. I read once about headrests and/or shoulder strap seatbelts. Neither of which are actually in the car. I also read one once that had the Impala as a manual, but it's an automatic.

[moonshayde.livejournal.com]

Geez, it's in every fandom, isn't it?

[superbadgirl]

It certainly appears that way! ;)

Oooh, icon. It's really dark on my computer, but I can tell it's oooh-worthy.

[seanchaidh.livejournal.com]

That is such a cute story! LOL

But yeah, pet names... there's enough on the show, dammit. :)

[superbadgirl]

No kidding. And you know how I feel about bitch/jerk in stories, too. ;)

I wish I'd known my grandpa. From what I remember, which is little, he was cute. I'm sure I would have gotten over being called kiddo.

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

IIRC, John called Dean "kiddo" in the teaser to the pilot. I can't recall Dean ever using that as a name for Sam, though.

Everything would go along swimmingly, and then Jack would suddenly call Daniel, Sam and Teal'c "kiddies." WTF, man. W.T.F.

That sounds somewhat perverted, doesn't it? I think that Jack did refer to Jack and Sam as "kids" maybe once. I'd have to go and watch it again, but I think it was in that episode where Jack got the pole thing stuck through his shoulder pinning him to the wall and it turned out to be a weird virus thing and Daniel figured out how to communicate with it and Sam was awesomely assertive with Hammond... I can't think of the episode title, but I think when Daniel and Sam had stayed up all night, Jack came in and told them they had to get some rest and be ready for their mission that day or something like that. I could be wrong about that, though. Hmmm...

Even so, I can't see him calling them "kiddies" like that. *g*

It really wouldn't. Sam's a sensitive soul (or at least he was), sure, but there are limitations. I would ask people just think for a minute or two before they make either Sam or Dean burst into tears.

I like that they both cry onscreen at various times, but we've never seen them break down sobbing...well, Sam was really crying a few times (John's "funeral" and at the end of Heart), but even then he wasn't really sobbing or anything.

I think that Dean cried in private somewhere, though. *g* But still...it can get a bit much if it's overdone in fics. I love crying boys, but they've shown that while they can get emotional at times, they usually hold it together, especially in front of other people.

In some stories, authors could have Sam or even Dean crying believably (for me), but in other stories, it feels like they're crying all the time for no reason. *g* I'm not sure if I could clearly state what makes it work for me, though, and why it doesn't sometimes.

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

I think that Jack did refer to Jack and Sam as "kids"

I meant Jack referred to Daniel and Sam... *g*

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Ok, I had to go and look it up on Super-Wiki.

I think the scene in the pilot you refer to is where John picks up Dean when he comes in to the nursery?

"""Dad: {Walks into room} Hey dean.

Dean: Daddy! {Runs and jumps into his father’s arms}

Dad: Hey buddy! What do ya think? You think Sammy’s read to toss around a football yet?

Dean: No, daddy.

Dad: No?

Mom: You got him?

Dad: I got him. {Turns off the light} Sweet dreams, Sam. """"

So that one is "buddy" - but could easily have been "kiddo" at that age. :))

In Scarecrow when Sam answers Dean's phone the conversation goes -

"""OHN: Sam, is that you? (SAM sits up in bed.)

SAM: Dad? Are you hurt?

JOHN: I’m fine.

SAM: We’ve been looking for you everywhere. We didn’t know where you were, if you were okay.

JOHN: Sammy, I’m all right. What about you and Dean? (At the motel, DEAN is waking up.)

SAM: We’re fine. Dad, where are you? (DEAN sits up in bed.)

JOHN: Sorry, kiddo, I can’t tell you that.

SAM: What? Why not?

DEAN: Is that Dad? """

So it seems John calls Sam kiddo even now.... but once doesn't make it a habit which is where the annoyance usually comes in.

I think in the show Dean is the "pretty" crier, the tears roll but his face usually remains controlled. Sam though is a real blubber - which is another adorable difference between the two of them. At John's funeral Sam looked about 12 years old - so sad... ::sniff:::

[el1ie.livejournal.com]

Oh and just because...here's the Something Wicked exchange.

""""""JOHN: All right. You know the drill, Dean. If anybody calls, you don’t pick up. If it’s me, I’ll ring once and then call back. You got that?

YOUNG DEAN: Mmhmm. Don’t answer the phone unless it rings once first.

JOHN: Come on, dude, look alive. This stuff’s important.

YOUNG DEAN: I know, it’s just—we’ve gone over it, like, a million times, and you know I’m not stupid.

JOHN: I know you’re not. But it only takes one mistake, you got that? (DEAN nods.) All right, if I’m not back Sunday night?

YOUNG DEAN: Call Pastor Jim.

JOHN: Lock the doors and windows, close the shades, and most important—

YOUNG DEAN: Watch out for Sammy. (He looks at YOUNG SAM, who is watching television.) I know.

JOHN: All right, if somethin’ tries to bust in?

YOUNG DEAN: Shoot first, ask questions later. (JOHN puts a hand on his son’s shoulder.)

JOHN: That’s my man. (He leaves the motel room. DEAN shuts the door behind him and locks it. He continues to watch SAM.)"""""


Dean is being treated with responsibility here reflected in the language...

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

Oh, cool! Thanks for looking this up! It's so cool to read the actual transcripts and rather amusing to note how much I remembered wrong. *g*

[superbadgirl]

I like that they both cry onscreen at various times, but we've never seen them break down sobbing...well, Sam was really crying a few times (John's "funeral" and at the end of Heart), but even then he wasn't really sobbing or anything.

I think that Dean cried in private somewhere, though. *g* But still...it can get a bit much if it's overdone in fics. I love crying boys, but they've shown that while they can get emotional at times, they usually hold it together, especially in front of other people.

Like I said above, I'm not anti-tears, but the situation has to merit it. And the writing has to be good, or I'm bound to think the writer has the emotional maturity of a 13 year old girl (hell, some of them might be 13 year old girls, which would explain a WHOLE lot).

It's all a matter of degrees. I'm not inclined to like any story that has them in waterworks all the time. Unless it's that spoof I plan on writing. ;)

[aizjanika.livejournal.com]

Like I said above, I'm not anti-tears, but the situation has to merit it. And the writing has to be good,

Exactly, except for me the writing doesn't necessarily even have to be good, but the situation has to be believable to me and the characters written in a way that I feel is consistent with how I see them on the show--or close to that or even just written in a way that I could buy for the purposes of the story (although the latter is the most difficult *g*).

What works for me might not work for you, but in general, when the boys are sobbing every five minutes or even just having their eyes tear up a bit too much, it takes me out of the story. The emotional impact has to be there, and that usually needs to be portrayed *without* the tears. Crying can sometimes happen as a result of that, but it takes me out of the story if it seems to come from no where.

I wonder if maybe authors add that in (like the puking! *g*) to add an emotional element. I think that's what I was doing with all the puking in my story. *g* (That still amuses me, because I really have such a phobia of that. *g*) It's kind of a cheating way to try to add a layer of emotion, and it doesn't really work. When characters cry (or puke *g*) without anything backing it up--nothing written to get the characters to that place--it doesn't work.

On the show, the crying almost always works for me because the actors sell it, but in stories, I think it's much harder to make it work. The writers for the show have Jensen and Jared to do at least part of the work for them. *g*

It's all a matter of degrees. I'm not inclined to like any story that has them in waterworks all the time.

Me either. As much as I love crying boys, the story would have to be good (by my own personal standards) and have more than just a boy crying for no reason or very little reason.

Unless it's that spoof I plan on writing. ;)

Hee! I'd love to see that.

[stabbim.livejournal.com]

Hi again. Just left feedback for one of your stories, read this post and had to comment.

It's not just you who's annoyed by infantalizing the characters. "Kiddo" is overused in so many SPN fics, and I can't stand Jack calling Daniel "Danny". It's okay if that happens once or twice, but some people use it all the time and it freaks me out.

Even if it's canon, they don't use those nicknames all the time on the show. Anyway, just wanted to let you know you're not the only out there. :)

[superbadgirl]

I often wonder what makes people do it. I can understand liking the big brother/little brother feel of the show (either SPN or SG-1, or any buddy-type show that features one guy slightly older than the other), but...they're adults. In Sam and Dean's cases, they are young.

I suppose it could be that Dean probably (but we don't know to what extent) had a hand in raising Sam. I just don't buy Sam letting Dean call him kiddo, even if Dean maybe sometimes thinks of his brother that way.

Ah, well. I can't make people expunge it from their fanfic vocabulary, but I sure wish they would. ;)